Question for you guy's with Powroll/FST 366cc kits

[jasonp]

First off I didn't buy either of these kits from FST or Powroll because I thought Powroll was overpriced and I never could get a hold of Mickey.. but I fully support what these guy's do and the products that they sell for are bikes.
The question I have is do these kits come with a base cylinder head gasket or not? Meaning do they just spec out you to use a sealant in place of the base head gasket to get a little more compression? I already put my cylinder on and waiting for my head and flywheel to come back from Duncan Racing.. . Can't wait!

 

[dave76]

When I bought mine it came with a base gasket. When you need to call mickey, call him at 4 pm weekdays and after you make the first call, start redialing every min or two, works for me everytime. Also the closer to 7:00 it got it was easier to get him without a buzy signal.

 

[jasonp]

I also am installing a 4 degree advance key so I'm a little worried about runing into detonation with runing more compression. I really don't want to run race gas as where we ride is in the ******* boonies/sticks.

 

[jasonp]

When I bought mine it came with a base gasket. When you need to call mickey, call him at 4 pm weekdays and after you make the first call, start redialing every min or two, works for me everytime. Also the closer to 7:00 it got it was easier to get him without a buzy signal.

Thanks for the reply dave. I tried for a week and didn't get anybody! I was like ****, I really want to talk to this guru and get some parts from him.

 

[dave76]

Actually the Warriors combustion chamber is very efficient, so I don't think you'll have a problem with detonation. Do a little test and tune with it, and advance it a degree each time and see what it results, if it's still pulling and not breaking up at the highest setting your good to go. But with the cam and higher compression a little bit more lead will probably be good thing.

 

[jasonp]

DSW, I don't think you understand. I obviously understand that the 366 piston is just that, a 2mm overbore piston.
First off, most piston manufactures will move the piston pin location up or down to for stroker kit's and to get what they want for compression... it's not just all about the dome. The new JE pistons coming out actually have a smaller dome and just move the piston pin location.
I'm not talking about the cylinder head to cylinder gasket. I'm talking about cylinder sleeve to base of the engine. This is where the o-rings and packings are. This would move the cylinder down and piston up in the bore just like if you where to change pin location. I've read and built a lot of engines so it's nothing new... I'm just wondering if Mickey or Powroll recomend doing that way. I guess I'll just have to call around. I work at a John Deere dearship and a lot of the newer tractor's are using gasket maker because the parts are being machined at closer tolerances. Gasket maker does not take up space as a gasket does.

 

[jasonp]

That fraction of MM is huge when we are talking about engines. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. Cosmetic sells different thickness head and base gaskets for a couple bikes just a FYI.
Why brother replying if your not sure, or you don't really know? It just spreads a lot of misinfomation and it's a waste of my time and yours...

 

[griff]

Base gaskets are paper thin... the space you are gaining is fractions of a mm. Ive never heard of replacing the base gasket with gasket maker. However you may be correct. Im pretty sure that when the pistons are made they have accounted for the gasket in the bottom end but i cant tell you for sure. One last thing... if you are already worried about detonation at 10.5:1 compression you may not want to go much higher anyway. Once you reach around 11:1 you almost have mix racegas in with regular and thats without a timing advance.

Not unusual at all, but it does depend on which engine your doing it on, and what configuration your doing. I personally dont know anyone whos done it with the Raptor engine, I'd have to check and measure everying to see what it would gain, and if theres sufficient room for everything to do it. You'd typically use something like YamaBond or HondaBond for a base gasket (and absolutely NEVER for a head gasket), and never generic gasket maker stuff you find at the auto store.

All piston-to-valve clearence (p2v) and compression measurements are based on stack height, which include the head and base gaskets thickness among other factors. They can run anywhere (typically) from .005" to .040". You can call Cometic, and order replacement gaskets in different thicknesses.

For example on my GSX-R, I took .018 off the head, and .004 of the top of the jugs (both to reduce the squish band for better detonation properties). Now this normally would not be a problem with stock pistons, I'd still have sufficient p2v clearance and get a nice little bump in compression. However, I am running Wiseco 13:1 771cc pistons.

With those pistons and stock gaskets, and the milling I did, that would bump the compression up near 14:1 which is too high, and the p2v clearance would be non-existent (theres nothing like a valve hitting a piston, and throwing a rod through the case at 11000rpm ).

The solution is to use a thicker base gasket, in this case .022 over, this way the tighter squish is maintained, and I keep the compression at 13:1. A quick call to Cometic, and viola a replacement base gasket .022+. Best of both worlds.

 

[griff]

Heh, the play-doh method works well for a quick check, used it quite a few times myself As long as you have at least .050" p2v your OK on this Yamaha engine IIRC.

Anyone know what the thickness is on the stock base gasket?

 

[jasonp]

Well sorry for wasting your time.. nobody else has made any effort to help you. Most people dont even really know what you are trying to find out. I didnt spread any misinformation, everything ive said has been a fact.

No it hasn't.
Dave and Griff both have helped. I don't really care if most people don't know or don't understand what I'm trying to do.
I've never thought asking a simple question would be so hard.

From what i take all you want to know is if you need a base gasket or not, and the answer is neither yes or no.

What do you mean the answer is neither yes or no!? Read my first post again. If you don't understand, don't reply.
If somebody has already done the work in figuring all this out why would I want to?

 

[griff]

You could bump the CR by running no base gasket, BUT you need to check a couple things first.

1. Check the p2v with everything stock (I suggest checking both the intake and exhaust side).
2. Mic' the base gasket to see how thick it is.

Then subtract your Base Gasket thickness from the stock p2v clearance.

p2v - BG = x

If x is less than .050", I would not recommend even trying it. Keep in mind thats just a general rule, and I do not know anyone thats tried it on this engine. There may be unforseen issues with any number of things.

 

[griff]

Crap.... almost forgot something!

If the bottom of the jugs, and/or the top of the case are not milled on a near-perfect plane, you must use a gasket. They must fit square and flush with little room for variance if you want to go gasketless. More than .008" on any side could start causing problems.

i.e. just uneven enough where crank case pressure could push out the seal.

Now generally Japanese machining is pretty damn good, and you'll probably have good parallelism between the jug and case, but be sure to scrutinize any imperfections and "wobbly-ness"

 

[jasonp]

Im done trying to help in this thread. I provided you with more than enough information to determine if this is going to work or not.

Good! I'd rather you'd not even replyed at all.

 

[jasonp]

DSW... Do you have some sort of reading comprehension problem?
Go back to the very first post and read it! No where in my post does it ask how I should check or do valve to piston clearance checks. And really if I was going to do this I'd also want to measure static compression. But I already know how to do that so really you are just wasting your time here. Why go through all that work if someone already has. It's a waste of time.
To me your posts are just one big joke... first, you said that it makes no sense to do that because gasket maker takes up the same space as a regular gasket. Where you'd come up with that factual info? That statement right there told me you have no clue what's going on.
Then you come up with, how it's only fractions of a MM and how it means nothing. How do you figure? Even Griff had to correct you on that one and told you that he had Cosmetic make him a special gasket for his needs. Yeah you knew that already judging by your previous post. Another post telling me you have no clue.
Now your telling me yeah, go for it, you can do it. What the **** are you talking about!
Like I said before really what's the point of replying if you don't know. Because it's not that you do. Mickey wouldn't give me some ******** answer like.. its only fractions of a MM it's not going to matter and no you can't use that it would be the same thickness. The biggest help would have not to reply at all.

 

[dswwarrior350]

There now all my reply's are gone and are no longer an eyesore for you. Good luck finding anyone that can give you an answer to this, because nobody can.

 

[jasonp]

There now all my reply's are gone and are no longer an eyesore for you. Good luck finding anyone that can give you an answer to this, because nobody can.

HAHAHAHHAHA