clutch quesion!

[MidwayUSA]

Like it starts out and says.....Here's my guess

Later, he also found out that the plates were stuck together, which is a symptom of what I described.

Relax, dude!

And where was your advice?

Sound advice was given by several people. This site is meant for people to help other people and I jumped in on you because you were giving bad advice to someone as though it was standard procedure.

The manual has a specific procedure for setting up the clutch. That procedure does not include loosening the bolts. Good luck getting that red loctite to come loose when you end up needing to repair the damage.

Argue on here all you want, but you have something wrong. We are trying to help you before you have a mess on your hands and you don't seem to care.

 

[codysisk13]

so let me get this straight, your supposed to tighten all 5 bolts that the springs go in. Tighten to 7.2 ft lbs all the way down?

 

[MidwayUSA]

so let me get this straight, your supposed to tighten all 5 bolts that the springs go in. Tighten to 7.2 ft lbs all the way down?

Yes. They are supposed to push the steel bearing plate tight against the threaded aluminum bosses. Also when you do the extra clutch plate you only do an extra steel but not an extra lining. The steels will just sit against each other and no they do not cause a problem. With no lining in there the splines keep them in place and nothing happens. Basically think of it as a spacer to decrease clutch pack clearance and increase spring pressure.

If you tighten the bolts completely tight and your clutch won't release then you need to dig back in there and find out where the problem is. Loctite is ok, but I would only use blue. The red stuff is pretty strong and you will likely break the bolts off next time you need to remove them.

If there is any question, look at the manual. Both the downloadable one and the Clymers have good instructions for clutch setup other than adding the extra steel.

I just dummy assembled the clutch for my project engine. I used as many thick steels (.077) as I had then finished off with the thinner ones(.063). I added another thinner one for the extra and when assembled correctly have plenty of clearance for release. I also left out the wavy rings. One of them had started to dig into the clutch boss a little.

 

[Rhyno]

Sound advice was given by several people. This site is meant for people to help other people and I jumped in on you because you were giving bad advice to someone as though it was standard procedure.

The manual has a specific procedure for setting up the clutch. That procedure does not include loosening the bolts. Good luck getting that red loctite to come loose when you end up needing to repair the damage.

Argue on here all you want, but you have something wrong. We are trying to help you before you have a mess on your hands and you don't seem to care.

Other than Gen1Pat, there wasn't any sound advice. I was asking where were you?

Standard Procedure or not, is your interpretation.

I understand the purpose of this and other forums.

I have obviously rubbed you wrong, but remember this isn't about how you feel, it's getting the OP rolling, again.

Think about my other questions, some more. Also think about your answers. They contradict. The bolts are going to loosen but now good luck in loosening them?

And remember that one rotation is equal to 1.0 mm or less. It still depends on the thread pitch.

You are also wrong about how much I care.......

If you're shooting for .002" and you get .020", don't come on here and take your frustrations out near me...... And yes, I do understand what it takes to accomplish .002".

.002" isn't really anything to brag about, but .0002", is.....

Try to explain rotational load, too.

 

[MidwayUSA]

@ Rhyno WTF????????????? Are you kidding me dude??????? I am done talking to a brick wall. Good luck on your clutch.

 

[MidwayUSA]

Ok, one more go at this then I am done. I sat here and tried to replicate a scenario where the springs would bottom out and below is what I came up with. Based on the thickness of a lining, if an extra steel and an extra lining were added, that would do it too. When you do the clutch mod, you only add an extra steel but not another lining. Loosening the bolts is not the correct way to do it by any means and to give that as advice to someone is just wrong.

Here are the alignment arrows on the two clutch hub parts.

If assembled wrong it will hold the inner plate above the splines.

Seen here assembled correctly the splines go up inside the inner plate.

Hard to read here but when assembled incorrectly the caliper reads .940"

Assembled correctly the caliper here reads 1.070. That is .130" difference and would probably be enough to make the springs bottom out.

It is not a matter of you necessarily rubbing me the wrong way. It is the matter of the advice you giving someone on here 100% wrong then you still trying to push your wrong advice off on me and everyone reading this. The procedure in the manual is very clear and never says anything about backing the bolts off. They are supposed to be torqued to a specific amount. The steel bearing plate is supposed to be tight against the threaded bosses. That said, if the clutch is put together where the splines don't engage, it should not work at all, but might if the stack thickness is thick enough. The only way it would maybe be thick enough is if an extra steel and an extra lining were added. When you do the mod, an extra steel is all that is added.

As far as whether your bolts will back out or not is irrelevant. They may or may not back out. They are loose in that steel plate, and over time that plate will work back and forth and probably eventually break the bolts off. It doesn't matter, it is not done right. If you choose to leave it, that is your problem. Just don't continue to try and tell people on here that it will work or is the correct way to do it. At this point you are rubbing me the wrong way because you aren't willing to listen to sound advice.

 

[Rhyno]

Ok, one more go at this then I am done. I sat here and tried to replicate a scenario where the springs would bottom out and below is what I came up with. Based on the thickness of a lining, if an extra steel and an extra lining were added, that would do it too. When you do the clutch mod, you only add an extra steel but not another lining. Loosening the bolts is not the correct way to do it by any means and to give that as advice to someone is just wrong.

Here are the alignment arrows on the two clutch hub parts.

If assembled wrong it will hold the inner plate above the splines.

Seen here assembled correctly the splines go up inside the inner plate.

Hard to read here but when assembled incorrectly the caliper reads .940"

Assembled correctly the caliper here reads 1.070. That is .130" difference and would probably be enough to make the springs bottom out.

It is not a matter of you necessarily rubbing me the wrong way. It is the matter of the advice you giving someone on here 100% wrong then you still trying to push your wrong advice off on me and everyone reading this. The procedure in the manual is very clear and never says anything about backing the bolts off. They are supposed to be torqued to a specific amount. The steel bearing plate is supposed to be tight against the threaded bosses. That said, if the clutch is put together where the splines don't engage, it should not work at all, but might if the stack thickness is thick enough. The only way it would maybe be thick enough is if an extra steel and an extra lining were added. When you do the mod, an extra steel is all that is added.

As far as whether your bolts will back out or not is irrelevant. They may or may not back out. They are loose in that steel plate, and over time that plate will work back and forth and probably eventually break the bolts off. It doesn't matter, it is not done right. If you choose to leave it, that is your problem. Just don't continue to try and tell people on here that it will work or is the correct way to do it. At this point you are rubbing me the wrong way because you aren't willing to listen to sound advice.

Great Explanation, Thanks......

It's still about getting the Warrior rolling, again.

 

[MidwayUSA]

Great Explanation, Thanks......

It's still about getting the Warrior rolling, again.

I agree. He posted in another thread that he found the problem. The linings were stuck (I suspect rusted) to the steel plates. He freed them up and ran it, but they went out. He now has a new clutch on the way.

 

[codysisk13]

yes the new clutch should be here today. and im going to be honest when i put my clutch back in i didnt tighten them down all the way because i didnt think you were supposed to but now i know to tighten them all the way down to 7.2 foot lbs.

 

[MidwayUSA]

I may lay out my clutch and take some pics of the detailed assembly. I need to get some more steel plates because right now I have a mix of dimpled and smooth. Based on the description of the Drive Line clutch on E-Bay I think I will shoot for all smooth steel plates and probably all .077" thick with one .063" one for the extra.

 

[codysisk13]

that would be great if you could midway!

 

[MidwayUSA]

Okay here it is. Rhyno I owe you a partial apology. If you use too many thick steel plates in the stack, the springs will bottom out. But loosening the bolts is still the wrong procedure to fix it. To fix it, change out some of the thick steel plates with thinner ones. The factory stack has 4 -.063" plates and 2 -.077" plates.

I tried stacking my clutch setup using as many thick steel plates as I could. I also did the extra thin steel plate. With 4 -.077" thick plates and 2 -.063" plus the .063" extra plate, my springs bottom out!!

So here is what you have to do to get it to work. You have to use the 4 -.063" and 2 -.077" in the stack like factory is then add 1 -.063" for the mod. This will work with stock springs, but if you use aftermarket springs it may not work due to the number and size of the coils possibly being larger.

Another alternative would be to use all .077" steel plates and not do the extra one which is the way I may go when I order plates to eliminate the dimpled ones I used in this write up.

So here is how my clutch stacks up:

Pile of parts cleaned and ready for assembly.

First clutch lining that has the small inside diameter.

.077" first steel plate

second lining and .063" steel plate

third lining and .063" steel plate

fourth lining and a pair of stacked .063" steel plates

fifth lining and .063" steel plate

sixth lining and .077" steel plate

final lining and inner clutch boss

installed a couple springs loosely to hold things together to drop in the main drive hub

bearing plate loosely installed

side view of the clutch pack showing the steel plates for the mod close to the center of the stack

 

[MidwayUSA]

I just did the math on the stack thickness. Going with all .077" steel plates and no extra gets you almost the same thickness as doing the stock setup with the extra plate. The stock setup with the extra plate gets you a stack that measures roughly 1.309". Doing all thick steel plates and no extra gets you a stack that measures roughly 1.302". .007" is close enough that I think that is the way I will do my final clutch on my project engine.

 

[YAMAHAULER]

you should sticky that Midway good right up man

 

[bones]

i see you opted to not run the wave washers

 

[MidwayUSA]

i see you opted to not run the wave washers

Nope. One of them had already started to dig into the clutch boss so they are gone.

 

[duneracerweston]

If you run aftermarket springs they normally have less coils. My drivrline springs are actually shorter the OEM, you ill need to keep this in mind when building a clutch, in my opinion the stiffer the springs the better, and the thinker the stack, the longer it will normally last. Thats just my experience and 2 cents.

 

[MidwayUSA]

If you run aftermarket springs they normally have less coils. My drivrline springs are actually shorter the OEM, you ill need to keep this in mind when building a clutch, in my opinion the stiffer the springs the better, and the thinker the stack, the longer it will normally last. Thats just my experience and 2 cents.

I agree 100%. I don't have any aftermarket springs so I didn't know if the coils were thicker or not. Bottom line is getting the stack as thick as possible without coil binding the springs. The Drive Line clutch on E-Bay says the springs in their kits are 20% stiffer than stock. Shorter than stock would probably help get things tight without coil bind.

 

[Gen1Pat]

I just used the ebc drc kit. I out one ib my fourtrax 4x4 4+ years ago and have only had to adjust it once. And I've put it through hell (towing 1000-1500lb round bale and shifting as I go,lol). So that made up my mind. That clutch everything including 15% stiffer springs. If I'm not mistaken the steels are .077", but I did not measure them. Wish I had, pretty comfortable saying they prob were though. I have close to 15 hours on it thus far and no issues yet.

 

[Rhyno]

Okay here it is. Rhyno I owe you a partial apology. If you use too many thick steel plates in the stack, the springs will bottom out.....................

:tup: