tyler
Well-Known Member
X2 for sure get a oil cooler.
Im installing a turbo on my warrior, Pics
- Thread starter surftouch
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X2 for sure get a oil cooler.
gruss
Well-Known Member
Wow that's gonna be cool, looks like a nice/well equipped shop too. What's the AR on the turbo?
Yeh im going to do an oil cooler also with a fan most likely to keep it well cooled. I just make some steel braided lines, I hate rubber hoses, still a little worried about sticks and rocks putting a hole or cut in the lines. more progress tonight, work is a little busy right now, race cars all day then turbo warrior at night, plus a bitching gf wanting me to get home, haha, all in a days work
from what i seem to be seeing, you will be sucking the air and fuel out of the carb ejecting it overboard. this is what i see: the orifice that runs parallel to the turbo's wheel shaft is going to the carb. is this the case? also, by running the exhaust that close to the carb, you will need a heat shield to keep the gas from boiling out of the carb.
Ok from the current pics this is not how its going to work, basically the carb is going to be on the intake wheel of the turbo, and the "cold side" of the turbo is going to go right to the head, whcich is going to make it like this, the carb is going in front of the turbo and the turbo is going to suck the fuel and air from the carb, thus making this a suck through system. the way you see it in the pics, its just running like it would if there was no turbo, basically the turbo is just exhaust right now, hope this helps
nope, sorry, doesn't help. my dad has had a few yamaha seca turbo's in addition to the turbo's i've seen on supras and such. putting gas into the turbo, could theoretically, cause the turbo's oil to loose viscosity and destroy the turbo's bearing. this is what i see according to your explanation: the turbo will be joined up to the carb as in the photos. but, where will the air/fuel charge be delivered? are you trying to mix up the air/fuel better before it enters the cylinder? sorry, this is not making any sense to me. for me, there's only one way to run a turbo effectively. the way this sounds, thus far, is, the turbo will probably never spool up, the engine will never crank. as per the given explanations above. now, in rereading your explanation, you would need to flip the carb 180*. your ducting may hinder top performance due to length of duct. and you may still have the problem of gas diluting the oil in the turbo, and well as possible predetonation in the cool side of the turbo.
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Well my friend do a little home work on suck through turbo kits that ive seen on plenty of turbo older cars, and tonight she fired right up, carb was on the intake of the turbo, and the bearing housing is a sealed unit so fuel cant get into the oil. lets think about this for a minute, if you think that the fuel will get into the oil, then when air runs though there it will blow all of the oil out or off of the bearings causeing the same effect, tonight when i started it, still not done, i just mocked it up, there was not trouble, and spooled like a mofo just with a little touch of the throttle. here are some pics
the wheels are sealed only when the wheels rotate at certain speeds. they use air to form a seal to keep the oil at the bearing/bushing. which is why if you do not let the engine return to idle before killing it, it destroys the bearing/bushing. it destroys the bearing/bushing because of the inertia built up by the wheels and shaft. when you rev the engine and kill it, the oil stops flowing and the wheels keep spinning. the b/b ends up riding on the outer part of the b/b, screeching to a halt. at least that is what the manual said for the tc003. on the seca turbo, the turbo was ran low and at the back of the tranny. it had a surge tank, not too much different from an intercooler and reed valves. the disadvantages of suck through, are, according to this, http://forums.subdriven.com/showthread.php?4433330 , more lag than ever, destroyed seals on the compressor side, no availability for intercooler. pluses are that it is easier to run a suck through setup with a carb. by running the turbo this way, it seems actual boost will have to be set lower than 5psi. the reasoning is, when it picks up the fuel, the fuel will increase the psi. by how much, who knows?
lynxgen
Well-Known Member
WTF??
the reason you dont shut down a turbo engine right after running it, is cuz your engine supplies the oil to the turbo, and the water, if it has both.
you engine stops turning, then so does the flow. In the meantime, your turbo wheels are STILL sinning at several 10s of 1000s of RPM.. that in itself creates a lot of heat on its own, never mind when the only thing cooling it is cut off. Also, it doesnt have that slight film of oil upon everything keeping it lubricated, and that slight spacing cushion effect.
as for the surge tank, thats basicaly an guard against oil starvation. If the oil pressure drops, the check valve unseats, and incomes the pre-pressurized oil.
The problem with blow through seups, is you need special carbs setup for them, as a general rule.
Essentialy, if you look at a blow through, think of it this way, aside from an increase in turbulance, and forcing heat through the carb, everything in front of the turbo just acts as if you're at a lower altitude. Its the same as having a higher atmospheric pressure. Say 5 PSI higher than normal atmospheric pressure. So jet for your current 5PSI more altidude/atmospheric pressure. (Some very simple math there, which I dont know at the moment...)
as for a suck through, the carb basicaly just sees it as a bigger displacement engine, sucking in alot more air and fuel, but the jettings basicaly the same as a blow though, since in the end, the turbo is still cramming in the same amount of air, which needs the same amount of fuel.
as for no intercooler, well, methanol injection/chemical cooling could easily be rigged up if one wanted.
The only downside I realy see to suck through is the risk of the turbos heat preigniting the fuel in the turbo before it gets into the engine. This is likely one of the main causes of the seals failing. Kinda like a reverse BANG BANG/antilag/misfire system.. lol
just basic intelligence can guard against this. On the warrior, I dont think theres gona be enough heat, and speed comming through that turbo to realy need to worry about it.
I highly doubt the seals fail due to the contact of fuel.
On the exhaust side of the turbo the seals see tonnes of unburnt fuel, plus a crud load more heat.
As for the fuel causing it to pick up PSI..? Well the fuel in our warriors mixture is the only thing that cools down our engine aside from air flow. Would it not stand to reason that it would cool the charged air going into and out of the turbo as well, ?
Cooler air/fuel mixture= more mixture into cylinder = mo powa!! more boost!!
This is why all young lil ricers and street punks and such add an intercooler 90% of the time..
"OOOoo add an intercooler!! makes it colder and crams more air in = more power!!"
Not, oh, if we add an intercooler, we can run higher boost without the engine pinging or blowing apart because the lower temps prevent against pinging, detonation and pre-ignition, and general catastropic engine failure such as blasting pistons through my hood...
everything is simple math.
Surftouch:
Just curious, have you considered running a separate oiling system for the turbo? A little electric pump, with its own hoses and tubbing? Knda makes it more complicated. prolly simpler to go from the big bear adapter, to the turbo to the cooler then back into engine, )Or other way around o which ever.
or maybe, engine, to cooler to turbo to cooler to engine??
just wondering.
At first I thought maybe it didnt even have an oil feed on that turbo.. kinda puzzled me.. but then I figured what else could you be doining with that syringe in the vid..??
EDIT:
By the way, what is that turbo off of/what kinda turbo is it, make? model? what from??
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well, thanks for all backing me up on that, got it all together and ran like dog poop, now ive got it all apart and thinking maybe blow through might be the way to go, the fuel just wasnt getting to the engine quick enough, it would start then die, i got it to make 3psi once, then it died, Im going to have to rethink all that I thought was a good idea on paper, The turbo its self is from an audi tt 1.8 t, this really sucks haha, I had some much time in it, and just to see failure. time to get back to the drawing board
jasonp
Well-Known Member
Great post.
When you place the carb before the turbo so it is a suck through you have vaccum on the compressor seal which can cause it to fail and suck oil into the engine. I should get my old turbo book out and read more about this, as I don't think this really happens very offen.... Gas doesn't have anything to do with the seal failure as you had said.
I remember reading it is a ***** to get a carb to work right with a turbo setup.
Jason
lynxgen
Well-Known Member
id you try starting it with the choke on to richen it up? just a thought, prolly wouldnt help, but just wondering how it changed things.
I would love to see it working as a suck through setup. In reality, I didnt realy anticipate such an issue, as its such a short run to the engine anyhow.
the simplest thing I could think of is plumbing in an injector to add more fuel for start up, and a bit of additional ingenuity to go along with it. maybe a signal off the coil trigger to fire it.
I have a great idea/rough design in my head on how to do it as a blow-through setup for the warrior using a "turbo box" type setup, but meh.
wheres the fun in that? lol
on the tc003, the air pressure from the scroll was the oil seal on the compressor side. according to the manual. in this setup, the tc003, if reconfigured for suck through, would put gas into the oil, ruining the turbo, and possible teh engine. if it didn't blow up first. the turbo is ducted to the breather/airbox; airbox to the surge tank; surge to carbs. there were two check valves in the oiling system for the turbo, but the surge tank was for the air alone. if it would have been finned, it would have been easier to call it an intercooler. it is cast aluminum, and looks more like a breather box than intercooler. the oil line, out of the engine to the turbo, had a banjo bolt with a built in checkvalve. also equipped on this bike was a vacuum wastegate, and antiknock sensor. i would try reducing the size of my ducting from the header to the turbo. or, maybe, running a small expansion chamber to allow more volume to get to the turbo. the average carb will suck on your hand at around the same amount as a vacuum cleaner. if you aren't getting flow through the carb, your turbo isn't spooling enough to compensate for the length of the intake tract. i would say try using a leaf blower at the carb while cranking, but, who knows what you would idle at. you could also try twisting the turbo so that the turbine side is inline with the exhaust. you may still need to decrease the header's size as well. this setup would have the fresh air intake of the turbo pointing out the left side of your warrior. you will get better laminar flow through the turbine, and better cooling on the turbo itself. hope it helps
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DeadLastRacing
Well-Known Member
opcorn: This is all forgien to be. But I sure am learning alot. Cool stuff! Hope you can figure out a bettter way, I'd love to see this beast come alive.
tyler
Well-Known Member
So whats up with this??
bassballs818
Well-Known Member
Im with deadlast on this one but i have to admire the the amount of knowledge you guys retain about this ****. I mean as a carpenter i carry a great amount of know how to be able to lay out entire job site from the ground to the paint but engine mechanic take the cake. Fun to read: hard to comprehend
bassballs818
Well-Known Member
Thats deep bro and so so true
tyler
Well-Known Member
Dang i was really looking forward to seeing this thing run !
lynxgen
Well-Known Member
No news on this?? *Pout*
if i ever had a suitable size turbo fall into my lap, i think id be tempted to try out a turbo version.. but idk..
I was re-reading the thread, and thinking, there has to be some carb turbo gurus out there someplace that could shed some light.
i know theres tonnes of turbos sleds out there, and other machines, but i think most of those are all fuel injected..
IDK, just stoppped by to see how this turned out with high hopes of it hav been all worked out n gotten going, n vids n etc etc.. hehe
if i ever had a suitable size turbo fall into my lap, i think id be tempted to try out a turbo version.. but idk..
I was re-reading the thread, and thinking, there has to be some carb turbo gurus out there someplace that could shed some light.
i know theres tonnes of turbos sleds out there, and other machines, but i think most of those are all fuel injected..
IDK, just stoppped by to see how this turned out with high hopes of it hav been all worked out n gotten going, n vids n etc etc.. hehe
